While disagreeing on priorities for the city’s housing authority, OKC City Council Ward 7 candidates Camal Pennington and John Pettis Jr. clashed in a debate Tuesday over mental health care inside the Oklahoma County Jail, as well as the city’s proper role in solving the financial problems plaguing the facility.
Past legal problems, a controversial development proposal and broad discussions about development priorities also stood out during the debate, which was hosted by NonDoc and News 9 at Metro Technology Center ahead of the April 1 runoff election. The candidates advanced from the Feb. 11 general election with Pennington capturing 45.49 percent of the vote, while Pettis got 30.24 in what was a four-candidate field.
Pennington is a member of the Oklahoma City Planning Commission. He also serves as the executive director of It’s My Community Initiative. He previously worked as an attorney for the American Federation of Teachers’ OKC chapter.
Pettis previously represented Ward 7 from 2013 until he resigned in 2018. A pastor, Pettis currently works as a community liaison for Millwood Public Schools. When he was on the council, Pettis helped to develop the Willa D. Johnson Recreation Center and the Northeast Senior Health and Wellness Center.
The Ward 7 seat was previously held by Sen. Nikki Nice, who is now serving in the Oklahoma Senate.
Candidates differ on city’s involvement in county jail funding
Both candidates condemned conditions at the Oklahoma County Jail, a long-troubled facility operated by Oklahoma County that is slated for replacement. Still, they differed on whether the City of Oklahoma City should provide more operational funding or help fill the $400 million funding gap delaying construction of the new jail. County voters passed a $260 million bond package in 2022 to fund the new building, but that amount has fallen far short of what is needed. County commissioners are considering asking voters to raise property taxes or approve a sales tax to finance the construction and eventually provide additional operational dollars, a key request from jail leaders who say current funding levels are insufficient to run a safe and effective facility.
Pennington said the jail constitutes a human rights violation.
“What’s happening there is wrong and outrageous, and if you’ve been in there and seen those conditions, I promise you, you will be convinced that we need to build a new facility quickly,” he said. “I think where the city should be investing in funds is in keeping people from going to jail in the first place — policies that prevent people from going in the first place.”
But Pennington stopped short of endorsing an expanded financial role for the City of OKC, which does not operate its own jail and pays significantly less than many major cities for jail services. Instead, Pennington said the city needs to foster a better relationship with Oklahoma County.
“We’re already taking a budget cut, so no, to answer your question,” he said. “We’re already taking a budget cut that’s going to hurt our services that we pay our taxes for. I think it’s our obligation to work with the county on other responsible funding options so that we can ensure that our facilities are up to code, but that solution has to include keeping people out of jail, policies that divert people who shouldn’t be there.”
Pettis echoed some of Pennington’s answers in his response, but he initially went one step beyond that, saying the city has a direct role to play.
“The No. 1 client for the county jail, besides people of color, is the City of Oklahoma City,” he said. “The City of Oklahoma City needs to be a part of the discussions when it comes to the county jail. Again, the City of Oklahoma City is the No. 1 client to the county jail. So just to sit there and say the city shouldn’t be involved or so forth, I think it’s wrong. I’m just going to tell you straight up, I think it’s wrong. I do believe, again, that the mayor, along with every city councilman, needs to sit down with all three county commissioners and have a true discussion about the county jail. (…) We need to have some true discussions.”
Pennington responded by telling the audience that those he speaks with in the community prioritize other things that he believes are more important than funding the jail.
“When I’m knocking on doors, they’re wondering why we aren’t making the right investments in our kids,” he said. “Why we aren’t making the right investments in our neighborhoods, in our streetlights, in our streets. And yet, we’re talking about making sure we’re sending more money to jails? When we should be talking about empowering our community so that they don’t even need to go to jail in the first place. Let’s have a real conversation about private prisons and that pipeline that incentivizes people to fill jails in the first place.”
The exchange grew slightly heated between two candidates who had mostly agreed on other issues during the debate. Speaking in third person, Pettis clarified his position.
“Now let me be clear, John A. Pettis Jr. never said that he supported the sales tax to go for the county jail, or property taxes to go for the county jail,” Pettis said. “What John A Pettis Jr. is saying is, we need everybody in the room, and let’s have a civil discussion as it relates to criminal justice reform, as it relates to also the county jail.”
In response, Pennington once again pressed the issue of kids.
“And what I’m saying is, our future depends on our investment in our youth,” Pennington replied.
Pettis attempted to interrupt him, but Pennington continued.
“Excuse me, sir. I gave you the opportunity to speak. Our investment needs to be in our youth,” Pennington said. “Our investment needs to be in our educational opportunities. Our investment needs to be in mental health services so that we don’t see the jail as our essential place to house people. Our community deserves better and I want to see us getting a return on our investment that we pay in taxes by investing in our children, by investing in the services that we deserve.”
Pettis again reiterated his opposition to a sales tax or an increase in county property taxes to fund the new jail.
“So let me again be clear, John A. Pettis Jr. does not support a sales tax for the county jail,” he said. “What John A. Pettis Jr. supports is everybody sitting down in the room having a discussion of what does criminal justice reform look like and what does the county jail look like. What is the future?”
Pastor Derrick Scobey serves on the Oklahoma County Criminal Justice Authority and sat in the front row for Tuesday night’s debate. He said following the debate that OKC police frequently arrest homeless people in Ward 7, many of whom deal with mental health conditions. Scobey said the result is mission creep from what the jail is intended to do.
“Adding to this problem, OKCPD refuses to cover medical expenses for these detainees, unlike other municipalities that pay for medical care of individuals arrested for misdemeanors,” Scobey said. “This concerning situation demands immediate attention. What concrete steps can be taken to improve this system and better serve these vulnerable populations?”
Candidates diverge on Oklahoma City Housing Authority priorities
Both candidates were asked about the Oklahoma City Housing Authority, which operates public housing projects and programs in the city. The agency has been criticized for failing recent inspections and struggling to keep some of its “scattered sites” properties up to code. The facilities have received low marks from residents.
Pausing briefly to compose himself, Pettis told the story of a friend who died at an OCHA facility.
“Several years ago, I lost a classmate at Sooner Haven,” he said. “His death could have been prevented had the Oklahoma City Housing Authority done right. So when you think about the Oklahoma City Housing Authority, for me, it hits home. Nobody deserves to be killed in public housing, whether it’s at a scattered site or whether it’s in a place like Sooner Haven.”
Pettis said it’s the housing authority board‘s responsibility to make the facilities it operates safe for residents.
“I believe that the residents of our city must hold the board accountable,” he said. “The board is appointed by the mayor and city council, and the board hires the executive director, but we must hold them accountable for what they are doing. They are doing a disservice to our community. And Sen. (Nikki) Nice, she was right to be outraged. She was right to go to their meetings every single time they had meetings because what’s happening with the Oklahoma City Housing Authority is simply not right.”
Pennington agreed with Pettis on OCHA accountability. But in his answer, he focused more on making sure the best possible housing is built and maintained for community members.
“I certainly agree that we need to hold the Housing Authority accountable to a high standard,” he said. “We want them to build a high-quality product, but I think it’s really important for us to lift up at this point. Northeast Oklahoma City is not just a place for low-income or public housing. It’s a great place to live for all incomes. So my focus on working with the Housing Authority is, how do you build a quality product that I want to live next to or you’d want to live next to because every person deserves a home where they feel dignified.”
Pennington said home ownership is also something that needs to be addressed.
“We have to focus on turning our renters into homeowners. We have to focus on building a high-quality product that has access to parks and amenities so that it’s a great place to live for all of us,” Pennington said. “Public housing done well is an opportunity for people to lift up and advance their lives, and we ought to ensure that it lives up to its mission.”
In response, Pettis reiterated his views on accountability while also calling on the OKC Housing Authority to fulfill all of its obligations.
“Accountability is important, because (do) you want to know how many people they actually teach about the opportunities to be a homeowner? Very, very little. And they receive federal dollars to teach people how to be homeowners,” Pettis said. “But they’re not interested in that. They are only interested in housing the poor.”
Pettis addresses 2018 resignation, plea deal
After defeating the Ward 7 incumbent in 2013, Pettis served on the OKC City Council until he resigned in 2018 while facing criminal charges alleging embezzlement and intentionally failing to file state tax returns. He eventually pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor tax evasion charge after the embezzlement count was dropped. As part of a five-year deferred sentence through August 2025, he agreed to pay a $5,000 fine and never run for office again.
But in May, new Oklahoma County District Attorney Vicki Behenna “accelerated the dismissal” of Pettis’ case, according to Pettis’ June motion seeking expungement of the criminal case. That motion is being opposed by Behenna and the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.
Asked what he tells voters who question his past legal problems, Pettis began his impassioned answer by telling moderators he would be going beyond his allotted time.
“There’s no way that I can address what happened to me in 90 seconds,” Pettis said.
Pettis said the charges were filed against him to disrupt his 2018 campaign for District 1 on the Oklahoma County Board of Commissioners. He said a lack of evidence against him eventually led to the embezzlement charges being dismissed.
“So here it is, in May of 2018, I was a few weeks away from winning the county commissioner seat when I was wrongly charged with four counts — three embezzlement counts and one tax-related charge,” he said. “Can you imagine being charged with a crime and you never received the discovery information until after the county commissioner race was over with? That’s something that people don’t talk about, but I’ll talk about it. The reason why the former DA withheld that evidence is because it showed how political those charges were.”
Pettis said the charges were motivated by votes he made while on the OKC City Council, and he alleged improper relationships among witnesses and prosecutors in former Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater’s office.
“Yes, he dropped the charges a year later. I was charged Mother’s Day weekend, Mother’s Day weekend, I was charged,” he said. “A year later, the three embezzlement counts were dismissed because of the lack of evidence and no credible witnesses. The witnesses — that never was discussed — were the DA’s friends. The community said no to some developments. For years, I was threatened to be sued for standing up for the community. For doing what the community asked me to do. Instead of being sued, charges were filed against me. Yes, in August of 2018, give or take, I did plead guilty to filing my taxes late.”
Pettis said he would have welcomed a trial, but he referenced improper relationships between former Judge Tim Henderson and a pair of assistant district attorneys that surfaced about three years later.
“I wanted a trial,” he said. “I wanted my day in court, but when your judge is sleeping with the DA’s staff, there’s no way in heck you’re going to get us on a fair trial. Let’s be real about it. When the judge is sleeping with the DA’s staff, what are you going to do?”
Asked for his thoughts on Pettis’ past legal issues, Pennington said he would strive to be as transparent and ethical as possible if elected.
“I just want you to know if I’m elected to Ward 7, to city council, my focus is acting every day with honesty and integrity,” he said. “It’s important that we see our future as one where we can trust our leaders to act with honesty every single time they transact on our part.”
Pettis responded by directing voters to watch a video on his website.
Prater, who left office in January 2023 after declining to seek reelection, issued a statement to NonDoc about Pettis’ remarks.
“Mr. Pettis’ attorney was involved in the discussion of the evidence against him from the very beginning of the case. Mr. Pettis’ version of his involvement in the criminal justice system is pure fantasy,” Prater said. “A witness in Chicago refused to come testify against Mr. Pettis in Oklahoma City, and that’s why the embezzlement case had to be dismissed.”
Pennington stands by Legends Tower vote
Pennington currently serves as a member of the Oklahoma City Planning Commission. Last year, the commission approved a permit for a controversial 1,907-foot tower to be built in downtown OKC. Pennington voted in favor of approving the permit despite questions about its financial viability and its impact on downtown light pollution.
Pennington joked that he was not surprised to be asked the question.
“I received it a lot from journalists after that day at Planning Commission, and my response when asked whether I thought this was going to happen is I just said, ‘I believe in OKC, and I believe in northeast OKC,” he said. “I think that this city has been strengthened by having a real vision and being willing to face any challenge that we have. So what I love about the fact that they want to build the largest tower in North America here is that it’s a big goal, that we’re willing to say as a city, that we can do anything in Oklahoma City. Let’s remember when this was just flyover country, and yet MAPS has brought us an NBA team and an Olympics (in 2028). We are a city of possibilities, and I’m going to always bank on the side of how we can make this community and the city stronger for all of its citizens.”
Pennington said the facility presents an opportunity for minority contractors to work quality jobs.
“I do want to be clear that you won’t catch me at the top of that tower on a windy day in Oklahoma City,” he said. “But I do think that it’s really important that we make sure that any kind of opportunity like this is one where our residents can win. That’s why it’s so important to me that we work on educating our minority contractors that are right in the community so that they get the opportunity to be builders on something like this. And all across our city, making sure that we are giving those opportunities to our residents is critical.”
Watch the full OKC Ward 7 debate
